tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9959776.post3773427487184113800..comments2024-02-15T04:42:41.606+00:00Comments on James' Empty Blog: BlueSkiesResearch.org.uk: International Conference on Paleoceanography, ICP12, UtrechtJames Annanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04318741813895533700noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9959776.post-88242337291880958532016-09-19T03:36:22.988+01:002016-09-19T03:36:22.988+01:00Did you see Appy's promo vid, Jules?
An effor...Did you see Appy's promo vid, Jules?<br /><br />An effort at a better balance isn't the same thing as a quota, Tom C. Steve Bloomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12943109973917998380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9959776.post-21023909778032965742016-09-10T01:01:20.782+01:002016-09-10T01:01:20.782+01:00Much more fun in Utrecht than Tom
https://www.yo...Much more fun in Utrecht than Tom <br /><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uo08yQZoJTEEliRabetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07957002964638398767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9959776.post-81094772593108649702016-09-09T16:23:01.448+01:002016-09-09T16:23:01.448+01:00Well - nice to see more civil discourse on this bl...Well - nice to see more civil discourse on this blog. You hip left-wingers really have no self-awareness.<br /><br />Tom Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03793192912187740419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9959776.post-85370205096927753012016-09-09T13:39:23.611+01:002016-09-09T13:39:23.611+01:00What is a "perspectives talk"? (My firs...What is a "perspectives talk"? (My first expectation is the sort of thing you described as happening in the morning session.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9959776.post-30907601837541182792016-09-09T13:35:37.152+01:002016-09-09T13:35:37.152+01:00Tom C, fuck off.Tom C, fuck off.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9959776.post-33983273262624502232016-09-08T20:36:28.712+01:002016-09-08T20:36:28.712+01:00"a large majority of the really boring irrele..."a large majority of the really boring irrelevant speakers tend to be men."<br /><br />Lovely; no stereotyping to be found around here.<br /><br />"I wouldn't want to have women invited just to make up a quota"<br /><br />Quotas were the topic of discussion, viz.: <br /><br />"The ratio of women speakers was fine. The ratio in the younger generation seemed fine. In fact I can imagine that there might in future need to be efforts to try to encourage more men into this area!"<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> Tom Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03793192912187740419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9959776.post-39712064820547106102016-09-08T19:13:30.299+01:002016-09-08T19:13:30.299+01:00TomC - actually it is you who seems lacking in awa...TomC - actually it is you who seems lacking in awareness: of the well publicised literature on inherent gender bias. <br /><br />That research obviously has nothing to do with the number of people I happen to count in rooms. That's just my personal hobby metric to observe the progession of the underlying population in the fields in which I've attended meetings.... Actually my new favourite metric is the toilet queue. Queues for the ladies have happened only twice to me at scientific meetings - it's a real novelty! First time was this time last year in New York at a WCRP meeting on monsoons, and then the second was this year at the meeting I have just attende, ICP. I think this may indicate that a revolution has occurred - at least in some areas/countries! All these poor women who don't realise that they aren't actually interested in their chosen subject area. They sure are great at faking it...juleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02591920483149775255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9959776.post-65775112486753729322016-09-08T18:24:30.540+01:002016-09-08T18:24:30.540+01:00Tom, please take your petty bickering elsewhere. T...Tom, please take your petty bickering elsewhere. There are plenty of instances of bias, typically women being under-represented in lists of invitees even when plenty of strong candidates can easily be found. It happened in a meeting I attended recently, at least it very nearly happened, but some of us noticed the odd list of 100% male speakers and commented on it just in time. Another occasion at the AGU, the session organisers admitted they had invited 16 men - 4 per year every year they had arranged the session - in a field where plenty of women played. This really is part of our daily experience and it should not be airily dismissed.<br /><br />I wouldn't want to have women invited just to make up a quota if they were not sufficiently interesting or relevant. However, in reality there are generally plenty of well qualified engaging speakers of both genders to choose from and somehow in my experience (such as the cases cited above and others besides) a large majority of the really boring irrelevant speakers tend to be men.James Annanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04318741813895533700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9959776.post-49384840923586104342016-09-08T17:14:43.395+01:002016-09-08T17:14:43.395+01:00[sigh]
You don't seem aware of the assumption...[sigh]<br /><br />You don't seem aware of the assumptions that lay behind your and Louise's comments. Counting the number of black persons in the room and trying to determine the "non-Caucasian bias" is symptomatic of a world view that declares equal numbers of white, black, brown, red etc. persons must be interested in climate science, or plumbing, or whatever. Maybe that assumption is simply not true and there is no "bias" to be accounted for?<br /><br />Do you really think that someone planning the event sat in a room somewhere and said "let's not invite any blacks"? Tom Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03793192912187740419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9959776.post-84767676316913133462016-09-08T17:06:43.593+01:002016-09-08T17:06:43.593+01:00Tom C, Many UK science institutes are now required...Tom C, Many UK science institutes are now required (demanded?) to address, or as a first step to investigate, the problem of gender bias and retention. Maybe see Athena Swan if you are interested in this topic. Accreditation through AS is a common requirement from funding bodies.Louisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11291500147230745688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9959776.post-13583849964576678062016-09-08T16:30:56.497+01:002016-09-08T16:30:56.497+01:00Tom C
Not sure who you are accusing here, me or Lo...Tom C<br />Not sure who you are accusing here, me or Louise, but I was only observing that the M/F ratio seemed close to 50% among the younger generation. My experience is that an approx 50% ratio results in behaviours from both sexes that are more pleasant (normal?) and easy to cope with. For that reason I think it would be nice if the approx 50% ratio could carry through to all ages. <br /><br />I think the suggetsion to aim for 50% speakers in the older generation is ridiculous. From university in the late 1980s through to the mid 2000s, the ratio of women in most rooms of scientists I was in was consistently about 10%. <br />juleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02591920483149775255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9959776.post-15324667281356413412016-09-08T14:57:30.831+01:002016-09-08T14:57:30.831+01:00Umm - why on earth would one expect every field of...Umm - why on earth would one expect every field of endeavor to have a 50/50 ratio of men and women? Is there some universal law that dictates this and whenever it is not observed it is due to "bias"? Maybe - horrors - men and women do not have statistically identical interests. <br /><br />Should we go to a convention of, say nurses, and "demand" a 50/50 representation? Plumbers? <br /><br />Nevertheless, it seems you feel entitled to "demand" whatever ratio fulfills your wishes.Tom Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03793192912187740419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9959776.post-17191524726879342192016-09-06T12:35:23.618+01:002016-09-06T12:35:23.618+01:00PS I also meant to imply that ideally Ms rather th...PS I also meant to imply that ideally Ms rather than Fs might think about contacting the organisers where they think maybe more Fs, or other minorities, could have been invited. Female scientists usually already do more than their fair share on bias issues.Louisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11291500147230745688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9959776.post-53995873777125312932016-09-06T12:05:30.939+01:002016-09-06T12:05:30.939+01:00That is somewhat reassuring :-). Did they manage 5...That is somewhat reassuring :-). Did they manage 50/50 M/F then? <br /><br />On age distributions, I have read that there can be a tendency to invite younger rather than older female speakers i.e. there may be quite a lot more older F researchers out there than appear on the invited speakers list. They just may not register (in time?) on the organisers radar.<br /><br />I think I see evidence of this F-age bias at various meetings. And sometimes organisers just forget to ask any Fs - have seen this a few times recently - sometimes to the organisers subsequent embarrassment. Non-Caucasian invitation bias is perhaps even harder to gauge.Louisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11291500147230745688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9959776.post-3357678223718759392016-09-06T11:43:07.703+01:002016-09-06T11:43:07.703+01:00What I was pointing out was the skewed demographic...What I was pointing out was the skewed demographic with age, not the number of women in total.<br /><br />The ratio of women speakers was fine. The ratio in the younger generation seemed fine. In fact I can imagine that there might in future need to be efforts to try to encourage more men into this area! The question is whether there is a "leaky pipe" that makes it difficult for women to progress. For the older generation, you can't demand a 50/50 ratio to be represented at conference, as it is just not there. <br /><br />Tell you what though - there were really very few black people at the conference, either young or old, male or female!juleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02591920483149775255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9959776.post-91552346683364076292016-09-06T11:23:36.052+01:002016-09-06T11:23:36.052+01:00“I look forward to the community being normalised ...<i>“I look forward to the community being normalised with a 50/50 [gender] ratio at all ages over the next couple of decades.”</i><br /><br />Would indeed make meetings rather better. One reason why this probably wont happen, without lots of effort, is the subconscious biases that we all have. This means women, short people, and more generally anyone who seems different is not thought of with equal speed – or why it is difficult to think past tall white blokes :-). <br /><br />What I’m trying to say is that getting something closer to a 50/50 balance at meetings needs active effort. Probably quite a lot. Asking organisers to ensure that a wide(r) range of people are invited may help. Perhaps you (and other attendees?) might think about sending comments to next years organisers?Louisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11291500147230745688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9959776.post-19925182691506993002016-09-06T06:06:57.411+01:002016-09-06T06:06:57.411+01:00Um, just out of curiosity, is there a particular r...Um, just out of curiosity, is there a particular reason a brass band would be playing at midnight in Utrecht?Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04108945551064939734noreply@blogger.com